Claus Lauter: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Why We Travel podcast today. Journey takes us to South America. Better said to Bolivia, a country that I had the pleasure to visit, and I think it’s really fascinating there. So today on the show, Shafik Meghji joins me. He’s an award-winning travel, , writer, journalist, and author based in London, and he’s specializing in Latin America and South Asia. He also co-authored more than 40 Rough Guides and DK Eyewitness guy. He writes for BBC Travel, Wonderlust Lonely planet@venture.com, Atla Obscura, and among others. His latest book crossed Off the Map, traveled in Bolivia, was published in March, 2022. So it’s a really new book, and we will dive into this a little bit more right now in our show. So let’s say hello to Shaik. How are you today? Shafik Meghji: I’m very well cloud sir. All the better for talking to. Claus Lauter: Yeah, give me a bit of an idea where you’re coming from, what got you into traveling. Shafik Meghji: I’m based in South London, , and my background’s in journalism. I used to be a news sports reporter, , for newspapers , here in London. But, quite a few years ago, Wanda Lus set in and I resigned and I went backpacking around, , India and South America and. my time in South America, I fell in love with the continent. I started doing my first travel pieces, , and I thought, Yeah, this is really what I want to do with my life. When I got back to London, I was persistent and knocked on a few doors and sent lots of emails, and, , managed to break into the industry. Since then, over the last 15 years or so, I’ve been a, travel writer writing guidebooks, , writing articles, doing podcasts and, narrative non-fiction books as well. It’s lucky it’s taken me to all, to take me to work on all seven continents. , but I specialized in Latin America and South Asia, ,, two parts of the world. I’m really passionate. Claus Lauter: Okay, so tell me about a little bit more about Bolivia. I have been there, as I said, and I love the country. It’s very diverse, has lots to offer. So give me a bit of a background. What was your first impression when you came to. Shafik Meghji: My first time in Bolivia was, just as a backpacker before I was, Working as a travel writer. And it was in 2004 after I’d resigned from , my news and , sports journalism job. And to be honest, I didn’t really know much about Bolivia at the time. I wanted to go to Brazil for the Rio Carnival. , and then after that I wanted to go and hike. The Inca Trail to, , Machu Pichu, classic gringo trail stuff, and just , the cheapest way to get , from Brazil to Peru was to go overland through Bolivia. , but as soon as I crossed the border, I started to be captivated. By the country. And over the coming weeks, I traveled all around and initially it was the incredible variety of geography there. I went to the world’s biggest sort, flat wait, went to Lake Ti Kakar, the world’s largest altitude lake. , I went into the depths of the Amazon to explore some of the most biodiverse places on earth. And I got absolutely captivated by the country, , at that point. And then, that helped to kickstart my travel writing career. , I subsequently started working for Rough Guides. I co-authored the Rough Guide to Bolivia. , and that allowed me to explore the. In incredible depth, over repeated times the last decade or so. , and it was through those trips that, , gave birth to my latest, book, which came out earlier this year, which is crossed off the map travels in Bolivia, which is like a narrative non-fiction exploration of this fascinating but appreciated country. Claus Lauter: If somebody’s planning to go to Bolivia, should they basically have on the list? a huge country, has lots to offer. What are the main attractions? Shafik Meghji: the classic attraction’s, and probably the image that most people have of Bolivia is of the Andan, side of the country. So that’s, The ARD Uni, which you know, has been immortalized in countless, countless photos that people be very familiar with. Even if they , don’t know much about it. That’s the world’s biggest sort flat. And this is an otherworldly landscape. It’s roughly the size of Jamaica. , it’s incredibly flat. It’s blindingly white. It’s the whitest place, the brightest place I’ve ever been in my life. And it’s surrounded by, these incredible volcanoes, these Anden mountain. You high up, your 3,600 meters plus above sea level. It’s really a halluc landscape that’s, , on lots and lots of people’s kind of bucket list, , adventures. And that’s definitely a must visit, not just in Bolivia, but anywhere in Latin America. Late ti car, car, as I mentioned before, is a huge draw. , one of my favorite things to do there is to visit the island of the sun, which, , according to Inca belief was where , the sun and indeed the Inca, , mythology , was born. And you can do a wonderful hike around there. It’s incredibly scenic. Like a lot of Andy and Bolivia’s, very high altitude, so it will wear you out. And then there’s loads of fascinating sixties, like Potsy, which was the site of the richest silver mine on Earth, is also one of the highest cities on earth. , you’ve got Suray, which beautiful, beautiful architecture. are all fascinating. And, As I say, Gandy and side Bolivia really draws people initially. I always encourage people. explore a bit beyond these kind of, well known destinations and particularly to get into the Amazon. So most people think of Bolivia as an and in country, but a third of it lies within the Amazon basin. And it’s easier to visit pristine primary rainforest, , here than in a lot of other neighboring countries such as Brazil, for example. And part National Mei, which is the most biodiverse protected area on Earth. It has 8,000 plus species, many of which are found nowhere else on earth. I’m talking about Pink river dolphins and anacondas and Humes and incredible bird life. , and you can have, incredible explorations, , there as well. And then if you go over. East, which is the lowlands, and it’s hot and steamy and it has , a lot in common with neighbor in Brazil. You have a completely different vibe and you see a different aspect to the culture. Depending on how much time they have to, maybe start off in the Andes, but definitely make some time to explore both the Amazon and the eastern side of the country as. Claus Lauter: Very good tip. So ins of timeframe. If somebody wants to go for the first time, what would be your recommendation? Shafik Meghji: the cheats answer would be to go for , as long as possible. But obviously most people maybe have a week or two weeks, not just for Bolivia. But I always advise for everyone. Try and pick two or three things and do them really well, rather than trying to see absolutely everything because you’ll have a much deeper experience for that. And the altitude, which I, mentioned several times for is really something , to be aware of, , the Andy side of the country. And if you fly into LaPaz, , you are gonna be landing at 4,000 plus meters above sea level. And however, old or young you are, however fit, your altitude will have an impact. So really , it’s important to take, at least a couple of days to take it easy. Acclimatize the altitude, don’t push yourself too much. Don’t drink too much alcohol, get plenty rest, all of these kind of things. And then you’ll be able to go off and explore the Salia Uni, the Lake Toka car, the fantastic, , ancient ruins of tier and acu, A culture that predates the Inca. You could spend a whole week just exploring the Anden side of it. If there’s one other place you know, that if maybe if you have two weeks or if you’re particularly interested , in wildlife, I’d really, really advise making a trip to, , the Amazon, which is actually surprisingly easy to visit. , in Bolivia, you can get there from like a half an hour flight from LaPaz High in the Andes, takes you across the Anden foothills and into, , rural back, which is , a remote town, but it’s the gateway into, , Part national made de you can’t get much of a starker contrast between the two places. , Mei is , one of the most, important biologically rich. Places on Earth, and it’s an absolutely incredible place to explore the rainforests and the pamper and , the foothills. It’s a magical place and it’s also a place where sustainable tourism and responsible tourism really plays a key role in helping to, , conserve these ecosystems and particularly, support the indigenous communities that live there. , you can have a positive impact with your tourism as. Claus Lauter: Okay, so is that already you need a plane? , what’s the preferred way of transport? , in boli? Shafik Meghji: It depends on your budget. You can get everywhere on public transport. , and mini buses. , and in , a couple of excellent train routes as well, which are very evocative if you like, train journey. So if you’re on a , real budget and also like we all should do, trying to reduce , our carbon, impact , and so on. You can get everywhere by bus. It is not always comfortable, and it takes a long time. So if you’re on a shorter trip, unfortunately, internal flights will be a, necessary evil. Some people, , hire motorbikes and, travel across Bolivia as well, which is, , evocative way to, travel as well. And obviously, you can do anything from organized tours to, hire a drive for, in a car a day. And I think , in practice, most people will end up doing a mixture of these things, really. It depends what your budget is and it depends how much time you have a. Claus Lauter: Okay. Tell me a little bit about the BiVs, about the locals. How are they? What’s the vibe? How do get around with them? Shafik Meghji: I was initially captivated by , the incredible geography and the, the diversity of the landscapes there. But as I’ve spent more time in Bolivia over the years, , and as I’ve worked there, you realize the incredible cultural diversity , in Bolivia and it’s an absolutely fascinating country , and it’s a place. , multiple indigenous identities, to the fore. And one of the great pleasures of visiting the country is to learn and to meet people , from different communities. , and, people are, the cliche within South America, cause people are a little bit more reserved and, maybe less flamboyant or openly, , than say in, Brazil or in Argentina. My experience is people , incredibly friendly and welcoming and, for responsible travelers who treat people with respect, you’ll get an awful lot, , out of it. It definitely helps if you can speak a little bit Spanish. The Spanish and Bell believe view is very clear and it’s not too fast and racked like in some of the naing countries. A few words will go, a long way I think you start learning about these incredible cultures these. Long traditions and air histories and , also the challenges that they face historically and continue to face today. , you’ll get an incredibly rich experience to go with incredible scenery as well. Claus Lauter: Yeah, I found the locals particular friendly. , I would jokingly say there are the tiny friendliest people that you ever meet. , because as a westerners a gringo, you always stand out because of your body height. , food is , obviously a topic. Anything particular about the food there? Everything that stands out, something that you really miss while not being. Shafik Meghji: It’s incredibly diverse. The food that you’ll get, the anden side of the country, , is very different to, , the food that you’ll get in the Eastern lowlands, which has more of a tropical climate and has a, lot in common with, Brazil. The Andes obviously the birthplace of the potatoes and the actual, variety of, potatoes that you get in, Bolivia and the uses to which they are put as well is incredible. So if you go over a bit more to the, Amazon side and the region just below the, Amazon basin, this is just kind of in. Someone like Cochabamba and the Cochabamba Valley, that’s the bread basket , of Bolivia. It’s got a wonderful climate. , the city is known as the, city of eternal Spring because of the climate and so many things grow there. So you can have wonderful tropical fruits. You get really, really good, , freshwater fish as well, bolivia for anyone who’s not sure about the, , geography is landlocked, , but , it has, incredible river and it’s really, really interesting fish. And if you are up in the, Amazon, you’ll get, weird and wonderful fish that you will not have come across before. It’s , often barbecued and served with, Amazonian grown fruit and vegetables, which again, are many of which you won’t have come across before. , they’re often absolutely packed with. Goodness as well. And then if you go over to someone like Santa Cruz, So Santa Cruz is the biggest city in Bolivia. It’s in the eastern lowlands. It’s the economic, , force. But, in that part of the country, it is much more modern. It has a very different vibe, but there they have wonderful, barbecue restaurants that, you know, as, again, if you. Brazil, you might have experienced them as well. Huge, kind of meaty kebabs. I mean, this is castle countries, so meat a huge part in it. , but again, you know, tropical fruits, are available and, you get stews and stuff. So again, it’s a really diverse place and particularly in the more touristy places. Parts of the LaPaz. You’ll also find restaurants from all over the world. You can. Indian food, you can buy, Chinese food and everything. Go with an open mind and eat everything. Claus Lauter: , that’s a good approach there. , reminds me on Coach Ababa, which was a very surprise to me, because I found out they have a, , Navy Academy there. You just said, , it is a landlocked country. So we walked around and were one of sons, , surrounded by Navy officers in their address, in their uniform. And I was wondering why is that happening? But obviously, like t kakar is a bordering lake and they have boats and ships there. So that was interesting. And also the other thing in Cochabamba is, , the Statue of Christ where everyone thinks the biggest one is unreal. No, it’s not. It’s in Kocha Baer. So a lot of surprises there. , what’s the biggest surprise for you or situation? In. Shafik Meghji: glad you mentioned , those two things. Cause they’re both , very interesting. to be honest, it’s, the endless diversity of the cultures and of the, landscapes really. An incredibly biologically rich Amazonian rainforest, very sparsely populated. And then, two days later you can be on, as I say, the world’s biggest sort flat, which, in some ways is as close to being on another planet , as you can get without actually, jetting off in a rocket. Parts of it feel like a lunar landscape. Parts of it are red, dusty soil in. It feels a bit like being , on the surface of Mars , and the fact that, so those two places. Within the same country and actually that you can visit within two days, and then , the next day you can be in a, buzzing metropolis, you know, modern, vibrant city. , it’s that diversity that surprised me when I first visited. And, you know, one of the great things about Bolivia is that every time you visit and. Fortunate to visit, spend a lot of my time there. Every time I visit, you learn new things. You see new things. You find out new things. It is kind of constantly, evolving and constantly, surprising. Claus Lauter: A hundred percent agree. LA Pass for me is one of the two craziest cities in a certain way because, just because of the location where it is built. , that’s already so impressive that’s one of my top. Cities to visit. I have been there, but I always meant to go there. So when it comes to a budget, to a travel budget, what can people calculate for? Shafik Meghji: Bolivia is one of the cheaper countries in South America. Once you’ve got there, now get getting there from, Europe , can be a bit pricey. international long haul airline prices , are expensive. Generally at the moment it’s often cheaper to fly via the US and get a connecting flight down there. But once you’re actually in Bolivia, it’s a very affordable place If you’re coming from, it’s much cheaper than in Brazil or Chile or Argentina or even Peru for example. , it’s a rough budget. If you have $50 a day, you can get by on that, and as I say, public transport and basic accommodation and food are all, very affordable So you can travel on a shoestring budget. The places where it adds up is obviously internal flights and some tour. As well. And I would always advise, thinking carefully about tours, particularly in the Solaria Uni and in the Amazon, because there can often be a great variety and, the cheapest tour is often a false economy. And also, , You can have a very positive impact. Travelers and tourists can have positive or negative impact , with the way they spend their money when they’re aboard. And that’s particularly true in somewhere like Bolivia. So I would always say, don’t be tempted if it seems too good to be true. The price seems too good to be true. it isn’t true. And so do a bit of research and particularly look to go with locally one, , travels and tour companies, and particularly in the Amazon Indigenous one, , tour companies, because then you can really, ensure that you are having a positive impact. So those kind of tours can sometimes add a bit more, but , it is a very economical place to travel. Claus Lauter: Shaik, you have written a book about Bolivia. Tell me a little bit. Out book and what people can expect from your. Shafik Meghji: Yeah, so cost off the map travels in Bolivia is like a narrative travel log. And it kind of combines travel writing in and journalism and history. The initial spark was my very first visit to, Bolivia back in 2004. And as I say, as I started working. For rough guides, the co-author, Rough Guides to Bolivia. It gave me the great excuse to visit virtually every part of the country and spend, extended periods there. And to really immerse myself , in the country, in its, culture. And so initially I thought, it’s a place that doesn’t get a lot of coverage, particularly in the English language media that hadn’t been a very recent travel book written and about it. And I thought, Oh, it’s just, people be interested in hearing about. The world’s most dangerous road, the world’s highest city. The world’s largest sort flat, the world’s, richest silver mine, the world’s largest high altitude lake, the world’s most biodiverse national park, all of which are found in Bolivia. So that was my initial idea. for the book. But then as I started delving into the history a bit more, I found that, , this country that’s, you know, lots of people outside of Latin America wouldn’t be able to place on a map, has actually had , a profound impact on the modern world. The riches that were extracted from it helped power the industrial revolution and fund the Great Wall of China. Just to take one example, so I thought, well, look, this is a fascinating history. Let’s try and explore that as well. And then I was also traveling, traveling there throughout the 2010s. Fortunately for me, a time of great social and political and economic change in Bolivia. Bolivia is on the front line of. Issues like the huge amounts of, , climate migration there. , it’s been very affected by the war on drugs. , it’s had to deal with populism. , it has to deal with like national identity , indigenous rights, lots of the issues that are important to all of us around the world. But Bolivia It seemed to be on the frontline and it seemed to be dealing with a lot of these issues. Before, many of us were really, other parts of the world were properly aware of them. So the book looks both back at the fascinating history and it looks at the contemporary challenges the country’s facing, and it follows my, explorations around the country. And really, it also, tries to share the voices of some of the incredible, fascinating people that I’ve met in every part of the country. You. Interests and experiences and histories and, opinions. And I’ve tried to, share them with a reader and really, convey , my enthusiasm and love for this, wonderful but underappreciated country. Claus Lauter: No, definitely it’s, a beautiful country as beautiful. Very, very friendly people and I would highly recommend anyone to go there. We. People find out more about your book and yourself. Shafik Meghji: I’m easy to find. My website is shat ji.com and that has know, more. Information on the book, and it has links to my social media channels. I’m, on Twitter and Instagram and so on at sha ji. , and you can also see, , some of my, , writing on Bolivia. Done quite a few pieces for BBC Travel and, , Wanderlust, , recently, which will give you a flavor , of the book. we’ll hopefully get a few more people, , hooked and inspired , to visit biv view in the. Claus Lauter: Okay, I will put the link in a show notes and you’re just one click away. I think traffic, you are a great ambassador for Bolivia, and I hope that a lot of people will put this country on their travel map. Thanks. Much for your time at Talk Soon. Shafik Meghji: My absolute pleasure. Wonderful to talk to you, cloud.

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