Claus Lauter: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Why We Travel Podcast. Today we want to talk about a very interesting topic, which might not be on everyone’s list. We want to talk about the mental health benefits of traveling. , and there’s probably a lot of them and maybe some that you won’t really think of in the first place. on the show today as a guest, I have Natalie. Natalie is a digital nomad from the uk. She has spent the last six years traveling, studying, and working abroad. So it’s safe to say that she’s a travel addict. She. Recently complete her studies in psychology, and she has a strong feeling for connecting culture, travel, and mental health together. So that’s something we want to look into. Hi, Natalie, how are you today? Natalie Christovic: Very well, thank you. Glad to be here. Claus Lauter: first question I always ask is, what’s your first memory as a traveler back in the time in your c. made you travel? Ooh, Natalie Christovic: , that’s a really, really good question. So, if you look at childhood, , I was raised in a very travely family, should I say very focused on travel. So I don’t have maybe one specific memory because , , every opportunity we had to go abroad, we did, because that was really important to us. , but in terms of, Memorable trip that I’ve had in maybe , all my life. , it would’ve been when I was 18, I just finished [00:02:00] high school, or in the UK we call it college, so A levels. , before I wanted to start studying, I took, a gap year, so a year to travel by myself. So I started , in Bangkok, Thailand. That was very Claus Lauter: memor. Okay. That’s a good place to start traveling, to be honest. One of my favorite cities. With all the traveling and being a digital nomad and deciding on this very special lifestyle, , which a lot of people want to go there and don’t know where to start, has its ups and downs. And I think talking about the , mental health benefits and maybe also about the downsides , is a good topic. So give me an idea what got you into first of. Studying psychology and connecting this with traveling. Natalie Christovic: So in terms of psychology, , I was studying psychology in my A levels because, , in our education system, we don’t have it before the age of 16 normally. First thing I wanna say is that what’s interesting about studying psychology is that it’s not really what people perceive psychology to be. They only think psychology is about mental health, whereas it’s. Being a [00:03:00] human being, quite frankly, in every sense. So, , I just found it’s really fascinating because , from that age, I was starting to connect the dots, this connects to this and that, that means that, and starting to look at it more holistically. , so that’s why I chose to study it at, , degree level actually. , my degree’s focus was more in neuroscience. , and that gets even more fascinating, , as challenging as it was to study it. , it gets very fascinating because you can see more concrete evidence so it’s a really fascinating area I Claus Lauter: would say. Okay. Now as a traveler, not necessary as a tourist, maybe also as a tourist, if you travel, you do your trip, you do your journey, you come back and hours say you come back as a slightly different person when you’re left. Every journey, every trip gives you new impression, no experience, and there’s just another person coming back. And health benefits, I wanna know what kind of positive impact you think traveling has on a person, on a mental state. Natalie Christovic: Yeah, absolutely. If we wanna look at the brain as something which is, on its own journey of evolution [00:04:00] all the time. So it’s constantly changing and adapting. , and I don’t know if you’ve heard of neuroplasticity, this basically means that, , with all new input from the environ. And based on what we already know as well, , we keep on, connecting new dots, connecting, oh, this means that this happens. And then because I did that, then this happened. So when we travel, when you think about it very logically, we are taken out of our regular. , daily life and, , regular things that we are seeing, , people we’re talking to, , even down to, , the food that you eat or the, bed that you sleep on and you are constantly being refreshed, are, you are nearly constantly making these new connections. all the time. So I think when you say you kind of come back like a new person, it is like a little refresh button because you are constantly engaging with something new around you and you’ve learned so much and your brain has changed in that process. Claus Lauter: Yeah. So I reckon that makes you a traveled addict at some point Tell [00:05:00] me about, If you’re going out, new cultures, new societies, everything that comes with this new food, what kind of impact has that directly on the person? Natalie Christovic: So that’s also a really interesting one, which is why, , I’m super fascinated in, culture in particular and mental health. we have been taught a set of ways, , since we were born. Depending on the culture that you live in, and that can span from the history of the country to the values of the country, to the habits of the country, or more the culture. I mean, this really forms our day-to-day life. This really. Changes the way that we live and , the norms that are around us. Now, when you go and experience, , another culture, one very contrasting to yours, usually, we’ve heard of the term culture shock because it is a shock for a reason. There are things that are so deeply wired in us that are so new to us , when we see them, but over time, , what happens is kind of similar , with what I was talking about before with all of these new concepts and [00:06:00] cultures. I think what’s really lovely about that in terms of mental health specifically, is that it gives you this opportunity to see, oh, I’ve been doing it this way my whole life, but actually. This suits me a lot better the way that they do it. So as you go around to different cultures, you can start picking up all of these cultural habits or cultural mentalities that suit you as a person rather than you as a member of society. So you start to develop more, in your sense of. . Claus Lauter: So you can almost see traveling can be medication if you’re getting stuck in, I don’t know, depression or something. Specifically. Looking back at the pandemic years, a lot of people, , had , mental health issues. Would you recommend going out in the world and like as a kind of prescription Natalie Christovic: Yeah. That’s a very good question actually. I’d like to refer to you without getting too technical. There is, , a concept called, , learned helplessness. And this was a study from, , a long, long time ago, , where they saw this, with dogs where the dogs could [00:07:00] not escape their pain no matter how hard they tried. So they tried to jump over the wall, they tried to, bark, they tried to do this, they tried to do that, and they learnt that they were help. And you can apply this to our regular daily life as well, with humans. , whether that’s with studying, whether that’s with friendships, whether that’s with your romantic life or your work or your career. If you keep on trying and trying and then you learn that you haven’t really gotten anywhere, you didn’t get those grades, you didn’t get the friendships that you wanted or the romantic life that you wanted. You start to feel this helplessness and you give up and that’s where depression starts to set in. , and there’s a strong connection between the two. the reason why you could say kind of prescribing travel in a way could work because. You brought out of that lull and you are opening your world up to loads of more like of these possibilities. , from my personal experience, , with travel, especially when I was 18, , I was [00:08:00] struggling a lot with interpersonal situations and friendships and , there was a lot of things going on in that aspect of my life. And for me, , when I just traveled, I realized, oh damn, , I’m traveling alone, so I need to start to talk to people, , that I’ve never spoken to before and they’re from different countries and they’re from here, there, and everywhere. And that kind of forcing really made me realize, okay. There’s loads of different people that can suit you, or there’s loads of different people that you can just spontaneously connect with and it brings you out of this helplessness zone, if that makes any sense. Claus Lauter: Totally makes sense. I think getting out of the comfort zone is a difficult task for a lot of people. , the first step is the most difficult one there. Now tell me from your side, you did a lot of solo travel, I reckon. , what’s the first step for someone who has never done that and, , to get out of their comfort zone and to get started with that? You have been there, so maybe your experience will help them. Natalie Christovic: For me, it sounds a little bit sad, but desperation, I suppose I really [00:09:00] needed to get out of my current situation, so that really drove me. But if you are not in that position, it sounds very cliche and very cringey, just do it. And when I say that, I don’t mean, oh, , there’s no worries, , there’s no anything. , the problem is when you think too much about something and when you think, even if you’re hyping yourself up, even if you’re like, yeah, I got this, I can do it. , the problem is you’re still thinking about it. If you’re just packing your bag and maybe watching Netflix or doing something like that, you’re not really thinking, oh, what about this? What if that happens? What about this? , and maybe to also start small. Don’t commit to something huge because then it’s overwhelming. Like when I was 17, I knew that I wanted to do this when I was 18. , and I just took two or three day trip, , just cuz I’m half Croatian. So it was just across the border to Slovenia Yu and it was my first experience in a hostel and just getting the. From Croatia to Slovenia, I was like, oh my gosh, this is , really nerve [00:10:00] wracking. And then to think I got on a plane and went to Bangkok, So you’ve just gotta take it step by step and don’t put too much pressure on yourself. Claus Lauter: . Okay. No, I think that’s a very good trip. Don’t start your round, the world trip as your very first trip. Do it step by step in small bits Traveling. Obviously we talked about the health benefits, but there might be also downsides specifically as a solo traveler. Tell me a little bit about that. Natalie Christovic: quite frankly, it’s a risk. I always say this, it’s a risk everywhere. , in terms of safety and, , Trying to learn on your journey alone. How to keep yourself safe. , small things, like when you, meet people initially tell them, don’t tell them, oh yeah, I’m traveling alone. Oh yeah, I’m 18. I was doing that at the beginning and then I started to realize that was a bit risky. , just telling them, yeah, well, right now , , my friends traveling with me, but they’ve just gone for a two day. They’re coming back , or something like that. I think that’s the real challenge, , is , to learn how to keep yourself safe. I mean, there’s also a benefit because you can take that on in your life further. , but in terms of kind of [00:11:00] mentally, of course the obvious one of loneliness. , and that’s a big drawback because sometimes people hit that loneliness wall where they’re just not connecting with anyone around them. They’re kind of jealous , of these people who are so compatible, seemingly, , to travel together. And you just feel like, oh, why, why don’t I have that? And the danger is then if you go home when you feel like. You’re gonna kind of make your situation worse by confirming, oh, I didn’t have any one, so I had to go home. I had to give up. , and I think just pushing past that point and just waiting it out a little bit longer and just being like, no, I feel lonely, but I’m just gonna give it a good go. Those are the, drawbacks, that loneliness feeling. But if you get past it, it, it changes you as a person Claus Lauter: for sure. Okay, good tip. I wanna go a little bit deeper into that. , I always say in every country, every place you are, there’s always the good, the bad, the ugly. you might have good days, you might be in a good place, and so on, so forth. Now, if you sort of struggling at some point for what reason ever, what’s your [00:12:00] personal tip as how do you motivate yourself to keep going? Natalie Christovic: I’ll give one example of a moment where I really was ready to throw the towel in. , I was, , going on a long boat trip from, , Thailand to Laos, which is quite a famous Longboat trip. So it involves an overnight stop this overnight stop basically is in the middle of nowhere with one long. And the road has one hostel, one restaurant, and maybe three stalls. And while I was there, , to cut a long story short, , my passport, my cards, my money, and everything was stolen. Thank God all I had was, , my phone, so at least I could contact people. But of course, with that went, my tickets went the ability to buy new tickets. So I was practically stuck there. And as an 18, 19 year old to be stuck, not just in a foreign country, but pretty much in the middle of nowhere. , my immediate reaction was I just sat on the side of the road after I tried to get it back and I. Cried and [00:13:00] cried and cried, and I had no, way of, getting out of that zone until this girl came along and she asked, is everything okay? Out of the kindness of her heart, she just said, Hey, , we’ll keep in touch, but here’s just 30, 40 years from me. You can pay, for your hostel tonight. You can have some food, , text me if you, need anything. That really helps you in those moments, just having a little bit of someone in the same environment, , but maybe they can sympathize with you a little bit more. So reaching out to people and just talking to people, that are around you really helped me to push me out of that zone. You really have to rely on that travel community. Claus Lauter: Yeah, I think that’s , , Vista’s experiences shows you that no matter where you are, there’s always people helping you. And the world is not as bad as the news tries to make it for sure. There’s always helping something there. Now from your experience traveling through all these countries, are there any countries that you would recommend to get started with so that it makes it easier to [00:14:00] settle in, to get a feeling and feel the benefits of traveling faster than other countries, which might be more complicated? Natalie Christovic: Well, yeah, for sure. It totally depends where you’re from. , what will be the least of a culture shock? So if you’re talking about a European, I’m from England myself. , so going to Southeast Asia was, quite a culture shock. , but also going somewhere like. just traveling purely for the, touristic pleasure of it, if that makes sense. So getting the balance between those two aspects is really difficult. So what I would recommend is maybe going, for example, if you’re from Northern Europe, maybe going to Eastern Europe, that’s immediately a bit of a different culture, a bit of a different feeling, or to a Mediterranean country that you’ve never been to before in a smaller town. And then once you’ve done. Then stepping it up a little bit, I think in terms of Southeast Asia, which I’ve traveled a lot, , a very classic one is, , Thailand, like we said already, that’s where I started. And I think going to Bangkok is quite overwhelming, but going somewhere like Chang Mai, I don’t know if you know, [00:15:00] that, it’s still Thailand, but it’s got this element of, , being a tourist. , you don’t feel as much of a shock as when I did when I went somewhere like Myanma, which was a huge shock because there’s, barely any tourism there or where I was traveling. So I would say maybe somewhere like Chiang Mai. If you are taking that, first step, Claus Lauter: I recommend Sha Mai as well. Love the city. . You’re doing a project called Mind Culture. Tell me a little bit more about. Yeah. Natalie Christovic: Yeah. So that kind of connects with what I’ve been talking about, so about how culture impacts mental health, and that’s a really ambiguous statement. I’ll give some more examples. , so currently I’m in Spain and, , I’m working on like a mini documentary about Spanish culture, , taking the example. Culturally, , kind of physical contact, for example, is different in different cultures. In England we are physically quite reserved, so if we’re gonna greet someone, we’ll put out our hands , to shake each other’s hands. , whereas in Spain it’s a lot more like even just between friends. They’ll hug each other, they’ll give each other a kiss on the they’ll lean on each other, just small.[00:16:00] But a lot more physical contact. And that’s very, very cultural. If you did that to a British person, they would kind of feel like, oh, what are you doing ? Having. Those, , aspects of culture, for example, here in Spain, , that increases the amount of oxytocin that’s released, which is a hormone, which is, , a pear bonding hormone. , so it can lead to deeper, more intimate relationships with friends, with family, romantically in every way. , so just analyzing, how do different elements of our culture and our upbringing actually impact. Mental health, cuz of course the closer you are to people, the better your mental health generally. But of course, if you’re too close to people and don’t have your own boundaries, that can also be a negative thing. So as I’m traveling from different countries, , I’m just exploring this concept. It’s very explorative, basically. Claus Lauter: Okay. Where can people find more about the project and yourself? Natalie Christovic: I have just started an Instagram account and it’s mind, the culture, the two underscores in between. And, , also on [00:17:00] YouTube, , where I’ll be uploading kind of more mini documentary style videos, , about each country’s culture , that I go. Claus Lauter: Okay, that sounds like a very interesting project to me. And we’ll put the links in the show notes and you’re just one click away. , Natalie, thanks so much for giving us an insight from the mental health aspect of traveling. I think everyone should think about that and where they stand in their journey and how they can basically get a better impact from traveling there. Thanks so much for your time. Thank you Natalie Christovic: so much.

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